[Update - v2] B2G Manifesto proposal - let's discuss about it ! :)

[lissyx]

Clear example: what do we do with ICS devices ? They might be still working well. But supporting their GFX stack is a pain for the gfx team.

[lapineige]

What means ICS ? (and GFX ^^)

[anon1576192]

The point name is no planned obsolescence, I selected this one to say that unlike companies and other OS providers, we are not here throw away your mobile support because of commercial interests.

I don’t think this will do… Planned obsolescence is hard to measure, and I suspect support for most devices is dropped because it actually is difficult to support hardware for a long time. I know little about the topic, but my point is that we shouldn’t say things we are not 100% sure about.

[lapineige]

Maybe we can include the idea of update as long as the community can do it (so limited by human resources), with OTA for instance, in another point ? (the web one ? The made by users one ?)

[lissyx]

Ice Cream Sandwhich (Android 4.0.4), and Graphics.

[lapineige]

Are there still supported right now ? I was thinking the limit was android 4.4.
I think those device will stick with Firefox OS (which remains usable), but not B2G. There are really old, will not evolve well.
A good start point IMHO is CM 12 compatible devices (so android 5.x).

[stargayte (Philippe)]

Concerning the Open Source debate, I am for keeping the Open Source expression. Open Source and Free are two different concepts even they are strongly linked. The word “free” has two meaning in english and our project correspond to these two aspects. People with no technical skill who read our manifest maybe will not understand the right “free” meaning. That’s why I prefer keeping the Open Source expression too. Maybe we can have a sentence explaining the Open Source word and why it is a good thing for security and privacy.

[lapineige]

The word “free” has two meaning in english and our project correspond to these two aspects.

You’re right, I was more thinking as a French, with the word “Libre”.
So let’s keep it to make it clear.

Maybe we can have a sentence explaining the Open Source word and why it is a good thing for security and privacy.

Good idea.

[lapineige]

V2 is here !
Let’s describe what I changed:
(editing in progress)

• I added an introduction, to refine a bit what’s this manifesto, and to add a reference to the Mozilla manifesto, and what’s the final goal of the project - the open mobile platform based on the web.

• I reformulated some part of the web(app) everywhere (did you notice the joke ? ) part, to enhance a bit the “webby” idea.

• In the made by users for users part, I tried to focus more of the openness, the free and open source () property of the code and a subtle reference to the fact that the community will support phones as much as possible - and stop when we will decide it’s too much (I think that summarize well what we said).

• I added the security point, again referring to the openness of the code.
  The end of this part make a transition by using the idea of easiness to use.

• On the Different by nature, attracting by design part, I reformulated it to insist less on the UX, but more on the idea that we are making something in a new way thx to the web, and on the easiness to use B2G and the adaptation to the user needs…

• …which is conclude by a clear point about customization - explained by web technologies power.

I tried to keep this kind of progression, in a way that will feel logical to the reader.

My only worry now is that it starts to be a bit long and too verbose. Should we try to reformulate some parts in a shorter way ? (without loosing the sense)

What’s your toughs ?

[ilphrin (Kevin "Ilphrin" Pellet)]

This Manifesto is soooo great =D

My only worry now is that it starts to be a bit long and too verbose. Should we try to reformulate some parts in a shorter way ? (without loosing the sense)

I think it isn’t too long for now, and anyway we may think about reformulation once everyone will agree with the current version

Thanks for this awesome work!

[lapineige]

[…] and anyway we may think about reformulation once everyone will agree with the current version

I agree, first the content, and after the shape - even if you can start to think about the final layout.

[anon1576192]

aiming for making an open platform for his users, where they can express their freedom;

We’re not making a new platform, we are using the already existing web platform. I think this is a point for us: creating a new platform is so difficult it would sound unrealistic, but instead we are relying on one which is already there, standardized, open and widely adopted.

Also, I don’t understand the “users expressing their freedom” part. We are providing an OS, not a social-network users can use to express their ideas. We can hope users will use our OS as a medium through which they will express freely, but in this reguard every other OS will do just as well.

This project is also supported by Mozilla.

Is this true? I thought Mozilla had no official involvement with the project (even if Firefox OS’s devs are still doing most of the work and we hope they’ll join the project).

I have a general issue with the tone of the manifesto, as it looks overly optimistic and ambitious to me. We are making bold claims, especially about security. I have mixed feelings about such a commitment. Being open source means anyone can check the code – not that someone will actually do that, let alone taking responsibility for that code.

Also, there is no guarantee whatsoever about general security: in the long run open source projects may take advantage on closed source ones, but right now we have no clue whether we’ll actually manage to build a secure and solid OS.

I think we may be promising, or inducing people into thinking we are promising, that the system will be safe. We are not really doing that: we have not the means to back such bold claims, and none of us is going to take responsibility for it. On the contrary, I guess B2G OS will come with a “this came as it is, proceed at your own risk” note.

[lapineige]

Hi there, I was sick during the last days, sorry for that, I will react soon

Everyone is welcome to add his/her toughs here !

[lapineige]

We’re not making a new platform, we are using the already existing web platform. I think this is a point for us: creating a new platform is so difficult it would sound unrealistic, but instead we are relying on one which is already there, standardized, open and widely adopted.

That’s completely true, but I don’t see were I wrote we are making something completely new, and not starting from the “old” B2G/FxOS basis.
For me the OS is always “under constructions” (= improvement), so the word making fits well in this sentence. But if you have a better word, please share it - and don’t have a better idea.

Also, I don’t understand the “users expressing their freedom” part.

Well, freedom is not only free speech.
It was more a way to say that free software means that you’re free to use it as you want. Customization helps on that topic too.
It’s not an OS that will limit you because it do not fits to the goals of the people behind. For instance, on Android Google is almost the master of all apps, that are close to be forced to be on the marketplace (where Google have full control, censorship, …) to exist. Or think about the iOS compatibility with a lot of software, devices, etc.
That’s the idea. The OS is not here to limit his users.

Is this true? I thought Mozilla had no official involvement with the project (even if Firefox OS’s devs are still doing most of the work and we hope they’ll join the project).

Well, right now yes - but I didn’t think about the end of the transition.
Do you have a better way to introduce the idea that we are still close to Mozilla/Firefox OS, and that we agree with Mozilla manifesto ?

I have a general issue with the tone of the manifesto, as it looks overly optimistic and ambitious to me.

Well, it’s vision, goals, to follow and target, not always the current state of the OS. But maybe I can rewrite it in a more clear way, saying that it’s the goal and not only what B2G OS is right now ?

Being open source means anyone can check the code – not that someone will actually do that, let alone taking responsibility for that code.

Again, that’s a target. But real, it will be a real issue to keep in mind, and will need a dedicated team, with experts.
But in security there’s 2 parts: the code issue, and the between-chair-and-keyboard issue
It’s also an important point (and easier to tackle): making sure that by default the users can’t do unsecured things, until he knows what he’s doing and what to do it. For instance, that can be good default parameters (like trackers blocking in the browser).

I guess B2G OS will come with a “this came as it is, proceed at your own risk” note.

That’s right in some ways, we should always said that it’s a community project, not a perfect one free of bugs and mistakes.
And make clear that the manifesto express goals, not (always) actual state.

[lapineige]

I have a question for you guys: when we will be close to a final version in terms of content, do you want me to open an etherpad to easily edit the shape of the manifesto, in order to find the perfect formulation of each sentences ?

[kskarthik (Sai Karthik)]

etherpad is a good idea

[stargayte (Philippe)]

An etherpad is a good idea. We can add ideas into the manifest when they have been validated here in this topic. Moreover we will have a global vision on what we really have, and maybe notice some missing parts that we have forgotten.

Add the link of the ethepad in the first message of this topic could be useful.

[lapineige]

Ok I added it to the first post. Here is the link: https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/B2GOS_manifesto_proposal

I will add the discourse raw text, to keep the same if we post it here again.

I propose to continue the discussions here, but to refine the shape of the text in the etherpad.

[lapineige]

Moreover when we will reach a final version it could be great to setup some pads to translate it.

[lapineige]

Hey @B2Geeks ! (this is the account for the whole community :D)

No reactions here since a while. Do you think it’s the final great and amazing version, so one we can share to the world ?
I’m sure we still have point to discuss, to refine/polish

Don’t forget to use the etherpad for shape corrections, small details, and this topic more for ideas discussions.